Gear Stuck

[Baza]

Hey, I'm gutted.

After the mornings snow flurries the sun came out I decided to take the bike out. I rode out the bumpy lane and got out onto the main road and all was going well until I came to the first junction and found I couldn't engage first gear. Continuing down the road I could only select second and third. I pulled over and had a play with it by hand, still no joy.

I then road straight to Ecosse honda (I live in town), can't look at it for two weeks. Over to H&S, as I pulled up out side the bike got down into first and then neutral. Can't look at it for three weeks. . On the way home I was only able to select first and second.

Now at home I can only get it into first and neutral.

Admittedly as I was coming out of the bumpy lane where my house is, I was briefly in too high a gear. I don't know if that would have caused it? The bike has not been used since last week when I washed it. Not with a high power hose, in fact hardly used any water. I wouldn't say I'm rough with gear changes. I've never had any problems with the gear box before.

I assumed that when I asked ecosse honda that ecosse yamahas bookings would be linked. Would I be wrong in thinking this?

Any ideas, big/little job??? I want my bike

[Zax]

I have had 2 issues with my R-6 gearbox over the 9 years that I have had it .
The first felt terrible , difficulty in finding gears and a gear lever that ferlt really vague.
All thet was require to sort it was a selector spring which cost pence for the part.

The second problem was worn selector dogs which required a full rebuild at 20K miles. BUT it did not feel anywhere as near as bad as the broken spring. (occasionally it jumped out of gear on full power then jumped back in to gear which was a little but disconcerning)


It may be something relatively minor with the selection mechanism.

[Baza]

Here's hoping so, Thanks for the quick reply.

I'll have a look tomorrow after I study the manual, but I'll most likely be booking it in on monday.

BTW I should have said my bike is a ZX6R j1 although it was on any profile anyway.

[Zax]

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Mod ... _Mechanism

[Baza]

So looking at the manuals it involves removing the clutch and checking/replacing the springs (from the link above) 92144 and 92145? That's if I'm lucky

Also is it possible to remove the hub without the 'special tool' having never removed a clutch before?

[Zax]

You can make up a clutch basket holding tool if you need to remove the basket if it should be needed.

If it is a clutch problem you do not have to remove the basket to replace the friction plates.

The basket holding tool can be made from two pieces of flat bar (from B&Q) bent to an 'L' shape with a bolt to create a hinge like a pair of pliers. This will hold the basket whilst the main nut is removed.


If you are just going to check and possibly replace the friction material then you have to disconnect the clutch linkage, unbolt the casing (have a new gasket handy as it wil probably rip), unbolt the 6 bolts holding the springs and remove the stack of friction plates and metal plates.

If you are replaing the friction plates make sure that you give them a good soaking in oil prior to installation.

What mileage is on the bike?

[Baza]

The bikes got just under 20k on it. I wouldn't have thought its the clutch, then again I know nothing about clutches/gear mechs.

Heres a few extracts from the manual to ensure were talking about the right springs.
Added the links as the pics are too big
Thankfully I'm now in a bit of a better mood thanks to a bottle of morgans and a michael macintyre dvd.

[metallninja]

Dont know if it`s like a gsxr but the gear shift pedal used to seize due to muck getting into the pivot, a good dose of WD40 sorts it right out.

[steve]

You can make up a clutch basket holding tool if you need to remove the basket if it should be needed.

ive got a clutch holding tool if u need to borrow it Baza

i would have a good look at your gear shift linkage as Metalninja suggested , if u have no joy there u may have to look inside your engine

for your sake i hope you dont have a problem inside your gearbox as i hear they can be a bit of a pain to work on

[Baza]

Thanks for the replies, the pivot does move freely.

I might take you up on that offer of a shot of the tool if thats ok, depending on the responses I get from this post it may be getting booked in.

Please excuse the terminology, dont know what these bits are called!!!

Well clutch cover is off, plates and springs out. with the clutch basket still in place so I can't see that much.
Basically this... (Pictures are out of the manual)


From what I can see the springs on part A... look fine. I can't really see gear positioning lever (part B/C)



On the pic , when the when the shift arm (part A ish) changes from first to N and vice versa on the drum cam, the wee latch on the arm (red dot) easily extends and goes over the lugs on the cam allowing it to change. However when I try to go up into second, the latch does not go over the lug, it pushes the drum cam a wee bit further making the lug on the cam out of reach from the latch. I the tried to give it some encouragement, but can't seem to get the latch over the lug to change it into second.


(lugs = yellow bits on drum cam)


Now not being able to to the positioning lever my thoughts are that the positioning lever is not putting the drum under enough pressure thus the movement when trying to change into second. Do you think I have this right?

Or am I thinking far too positive hoping that I dont need to get it stripped???

[steve]

sounds like u could have a problem with the pins on the forks that locate into the grooves in the selector shaft

i really hope u dont as that is a complete strip down an u will be lucky if any bike shop will take on a job like that at this time of year

have u had any problems with your gearbox before ?

[Baza]

Don't say that....

Never had any problems before.

[Baza]

OK, so I'm preparing for the inevitable.

I'm going to stock up on a few things just in case, handy to have anyway I suppose. The manual states I need the following, and was hoping for a few pointers as to what exactly I should get.

Molybdenum something or other grease - I went to autosave at lunch the closest they had was CV grease with added Molybdenum. What should I be using?

non permanent thread lock - loctite number ??? It was red stuff that was on the bolts when they came out.

Silicone sealant over gasket - in the past when some of my old wrecks were taken to bits by my mate years ago. they were just sealed up with blue hermitite not bothering with paper gaskets, same with the car. Of course I dont want to treat my bike like that. Not knowing what the difference between the colours, even the packaging doesn’t give much away. Clear, red, blue, black? Brands?

I would think I shouldnt really use the stuff I use to seal the bath with

[bubbaf]

Grease might have been Molybdenum Di-Sulphide (or called Moly-lithium) which is used as an Extreme Pressure additive for high load - easy way to identify is the grease will usually be black or dark in colour, CV grease such as Comma's at Halfords has Moly added to the Lithium which is a good thickening platform - wouldn't think you would need anything more than that.

If you want a definite match to the manual let me know and I'll see if I can come up with a list of possible matches

OK, so I'm preparing for the inevitable.

I'm going to stock up on a few things just in case, handy to have anyway I suppose. The manual states I need the following, and was hoping for a few pointers as to what exactly I should get.

Molybdenum something or other grease - I went to autosave at lunch the closest they had was CV grease with added Molybdenum. What should I be using?

non permanent thread lock - loctite number ??? It was red stuff that was on the bolts when they came out.

Silicone sealant over gasket - in the past when some of my old wrecks were taken to bits by my mate years ago. they were just sealed up with blue hermitite not bothering with paper gaskets, same with the car. Of course I dont want to treat my bike like that. Not knowing what the difference between the colours, even the packaging doesn’t give much away. Clear, red, blue, black? Brands?

I would think I shouldnt really use the stuff I use to seal the bath with

[Baza]

OK

So out looking at the bike again, took the gear lever off and the sprocket cover off and gave everything a good clean. Had another poke about, re-assembled the gear lever. Put the bike on the stand, spun the wheel the tried to change gear.

Remember I don't know if any of this is normal with the engine not running, the clutch plates off with no oil and a one handed spin of the wheel every no and again.

It seems to be changing through all the gears. First to N, it takes another hit to get it up to second. I can't get a smooth change from first to second. Then up to fourth and not sure about the change to fifth it may be a false N. then up to sixth. With kinda the same story going back down.

Could this just have been a panic and not cleaning the shaft properly??? Not sure what to do now.

[Zax]

Re ssemble and take it for a short run round the block.
Leave whatever you dont need off the bike.


At least you will know if you have had some success.

[Baza]

Bull in a china shop. thats me. This time I hope to get the I told you treatment!!!

Did someone on here sell oil on the side?

[Zax]

Boydie is a rep for Valvoline (i think) sertainly some sort of slippy stuff.

[steve]

Re ssemble and take it for a short run round the block.

i agree , if your happy uve cleaned everything well enough then take it for a wee test ride , dont go too far incase it needs pushing home , take it easy with your gear changes tho , dont farce it into gear

good luck dude

[Baza]

To keep everyone thats given me advice informed, I'm still not on the road yet.

When I was putting in the springs I sheared off one of the bolts in the basket, (failing to use the torque wench correctly)

A mate from work gave me a shot of a holding tool for me to take off the basket so I could remove the offending bolt. On this bit I still don't know if I want to laugh or cry. I broke the cast of the clutch basket. One of the fingers snapped off. I'm positive nothing was touching it!!!

Anyway the up shot of it is I'm trying to source a clutch basket. I got a few emails from breakers over the weekend that I'll follow up on monday. So fingers crossed I'll be back out by next weekend.

Anyone want me to tighten up your bolts on yer pride and joy??

[chewbacca]

Sorry to hear of your woes Bazza,nae luck.When your putting the pressure plate back on next time,I'd be tempted to tighten the capscrews /bolts in by hand,and be canny wi the tightening,and forget about the torque wrench.I use it all the time for bigger sized bolts and the likes but small sizes and alloy are a disaster,they only need a pinching up.Dont know the exact torque setting for the plate on your bike but 8-9nm wouldn't be far out.That's only tighten by hand then a wee nip up.Good luck.

[Baza]

Well I thought things were starting to go right for me. Then when I compared the clutch I have been sent and the one that's off the bike. Identical apart from the replacement one is about 5mm deeper. Dammit!!!

[Baza]

Well finally I got my bike working!!!!

Got replacement clutch basket (No2) and fitted on Thursday and it fired straight up. Managed to find the time to get everything back on the bike and got out for a good run in the great weather we had this morning. Everything seems great. Well I assume that my poking about at bits didn't have any effect. I obviously just didn't clean the shaft properly, as the gear change now seems perfect.

Lessons Learned..

1. learn how to use a torque wrench.
2. ZX6R 'g' models have virtually identical clutches, but don't fit 'j' models (not my fault)

and most importantly

3. Don't panic and take things to bits when something just needs a good clean!

Thanks to all that offered help and hopefully I wont be so stupid in future.